E42 The Death Grip of Shame: How To Overcome Guilt, Condemnation, and False Identity

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT:

Jen Cudmore (00:00)
Shame is a silent killer. It will bully you and torment you until you learn to stand against it. Shame isn’t proof that there’s something wrong with you. It’s a moment where you get to decide which voice you’re going to listen to. The lies that come from the world or the truth from God.

Join Rosalyn and I today for a discussion on overcoming guilt and condemnation. Let’s go.

Welcome to Into the Depths podcast where we go below the surface, we dive into who we are and we break free of who we’ve been. Today, we’re talking about breaking free of the death grip of shame. And of course I have Roslyn with me today and we’re talking about shame because it is such a huge prevalent issue that women struggle, well men and women struggle with. Definitely something we both have had challenges with ⁓ for years, decades, right?

Rosalynn Lasley (00:37)
by the age.

Yeah.

Jen Cudmore (00:51)
We wanted to talk about ⁓ why shame is so important to ⁓ overcome because it’s all about our identity and who we are. And so it’s harder to overcome a lot of times, but it is super valuable when we learn how to do it and how to make our identity grounded in who God says we are and not in just the lies and the labels and limitations of the world or the enemy or whatever.

Rosalynn Lasley (01:00)
Thank you.

running.

Jen Cudmore (01:17)
So Roslyn, how do you want to open this up and get us started?

Rosalynn Lasley (01:21)
I think shame is ⁓ one of those things that it can be a tool for our growth, but it can be a hindrance in our growth as well. It’s what we do once we’ve identified the shame and how do we grow from there that really makes a difference in our lives.

Jen Cudmore (01:31)
right.

Yeah, for sure. I was kind of thinking about like

How do you define it? I was kind of struggling for words. I threw down some different things. It’s really a false identity is what it is. It’s just a bunch of stuff that you believe about yourself that’s not really true. It’s an inaccurate picture of who you think that you are. It’s like you’re saying at the core of your being, there’s something very wrong with me. The Bible is very clear. There’s nothing wrong with us. We’re wonderfully made. What are some of the ways that you would try

to define what shame is.

Rosalynn Lasley (02:14)
I think it’s a way that we hold on to our faults and mistakes instead of ⁓ accepting that we’ve been made new and we’re new creations in Christ.

Jen Cudmore (02:28)
Part of it is fixating on what we think we did wrong or what we think other people are saying about us or whatever. ⁓ So the thing that I really want to hone in on is that it is possible to overcome it. Like shame feels so big, especially when you’re in the middle of a spiral or what they call a shame storm, which I think is a really great way to explain it. You’re like, you just don’t know how to get out. That loop is like so strong and you, I mean, you really are stuck there.

What I have begun to learn and I’ve begun practicing is that shame may visit, but it doesn’t get to stay. Like we get to choose if it stays. We get to choose if it torments us. And that was so empowering for me when I first went to counseling and realized, my gosh, I have control over. ⁓

Rosalynn Lasley (03:12)
Right.

Jen Cudmore (03:18)
letting this storm overtake me. And so that was really freeing and exciting for me. thought, ⁓ I don’t have to live this way the rest of my life. I don’t have to just accept when that self-condemnation keeps hitting me. I mean, how cool is that? That’s exciting.

Rosalynn Lasley (03:31)
point.

And I think it also kind of depends on where you are in your journey. Is it a conviction of, you know, God is asking you to write something in your life and it’s not meant to be shameful. It’s more of a, hey, you’re separated from me. This is not what I have called you for. This is not the path that I want for you. So let’s do something about it. And then are we revisiting that feeling of conviction and then that becomes shame instead of saying, you know, this was a tool that God used to help me draw closer to him.

but I’m taking that mistake or that ⁓ inadequacy I feel in myself and just beating myself over the head with it again and again and again, rather than using it to continue to catapult me closer to him.

Jen Cudmore (04:17)
Yeah, I love that. That’s definitely.

I mean, the moments are gonna happen. You’re gonna make mistakes. You’re gonna feel like a fool. You’re gonna, I mean, just the other day, this was like literally a week ago, I was at the main campus of my church. I was leading the intercessor team for a freedom retreat that we do twice a year. And towards the end, there was something that my team was in charge of handling up at the front of the room. So you’re in front of everybody. So I don’t know how many attendees we had, like maybe 100, 120 participants in this. And…

⁓ Me and one of the pastors were both, you know heading up there to handle something at the same time So everyone’s watching us and realizing that there’s a mistake and a miscommunication and so there was a little bit of whispering back and forth and I felt really I Immediately felt embarrassed like I my face started to get hot my stomach started to clench up and like twist up and I was like Hold up. Hold up. Like I don’t

I’m so, I’m really proud of this moment honestly because I was like, wait a second. I immediately recognized what was happening. Like the shame was trying to ⁓ make me feel bad. And so I was like, hold on, it’s an honest mistake. It’s nobody’s fault. And it’s not that technically anybody did anything wrong. These things happen. And I was able to like take a breath and kind of brush it off and then do the thing. And then looking back on it later, I went to the pastor and I was like, oops, sorry about that miscommunication. And it totally worked itself out.

Rosalynn Lasley (05:15)
Mm.

Great.

Jen Cudmore (05:42)
Normally, know 10 years ago I would have been like stewing on that for months and just feeling like an idiot for you know that we looked silly up there doing trying to do the same thing and these things are gonna continue to happen for the rest of your life like while we’re on the earth But we can learn to practice not letting it ⁓ What’s the word? We can practice not getting sucked into that spiral or that shame storm. So

Rosalynn Lasley (06:07)
Right. Well, and

if you had, you know, gone back to the way that you typically felt when you’d make a mistake or something wasn’t exactly perfect, it would keep you from doing it again. You wouldn’t want to participate in these activities. You wouldn’t want to do these prayer retreats because you’re like, well, I made a fool of myself, so I’m definitely not going to show my face there again. And then, you know, you’re not using the tools that God has given you and the gifts that God has given you to help bless and grow other women. And so.

Jen Cudmore (06:19)
Exactly.

Exactly.

Rosalynn Lasley (06:34)
Shame is extremely powerful tool of the enemy because it keeps us from, I mean, it isolates us. It helps us to ⁓ avoid connecting or using what God is calling us to do because we think, well, if we’re just a big old mess, then how in the world, who am I to dare stand up here and try and do this thing? Because I’m not equipped for this by any means.

Jen Cudmore (07:01)
Yeah, exactly. mean, and I believe it’s definitely a tool that Satan uses to keep us from fulfilling our purpose and doing our kingdom assignments, right? And serving the Lord and using our gifts. Yeah, absolutely. So ⁓ you had made a comment about like shame being, you know, from the very beginning with Adam and Eve. I would love for you to talk about that a little bit as we move into it.

Rosalynn Lasley (07:24)
Yeah.

So when I was preparing for this week’s episode and praying about it and just kind of thinking through, like, where does shame come from and why is it so effective? I thought, you know, when in Genesis, you know, the very first chapter of Genesis, Adam and Eve, you know, they sinned, they ate from the tree when God told them not to. And then they realized they were naked and they were afraid, ashamed, and they hid from God.

And so was like the very first thing that separated us from God was shame. ⁓ You know, it’s like we messed up and now we’re fully aware of the magnitude of our mistake. And so we’re ashamed. we’re hiding from God, you know, and we do that not only from hiding from God, but from other people, because we don’t want people to see us as broken or for me, it’s like somebody is going to validate all of these worst things I’ve ever felt about myself. And so then like,

don’t ever want them to know exactly how messed up I am or how many mistakes I’ve made or how I try and then I just can’t quite get it right. And so I withdraw because it’s easier to withdraw than to have other people tell you, yeah, you really are a mess. ⁓ And so Adam and Eve did that. That was a very first example of shame separating us from God. But then I thought about like,

the woman at the well, you know, she went at a different time and she was alone because she was ashamed. And maybe it’s also from being shunned from the people around her because they knew her story and then they kept heaping shame on her. ⁓ But, you know, Jesus pulled up a seat beside her and, you know, it was like your shame. Yes, there are things in your life you need to get together, but your shame is not too great for me to pull up a seat beside you.

And so I just thought, like, how powerful is that in our lives where if we really stop and think shame is what separates us from God, but Jesus is willing to pull up a seat beside us in the midst of it, it makes that healing so powerful because we don’t have to sit in that isolated place. We don’t have to hide from God when we’ve made a mistake or we’re not quite where we want to be. Or even when other people will shame us for the mistakes that we’ve made, we don’t have to.

let that be what’s victorious. can say like, listen, Jesus pulled up a seat beside me. And yes, that was a mistake, but I’m working on it. And I’m not where I want to be, but he’s getting me there.

Jen Cudmore (09:46)
Being able to talk things out with the Lord, ⁓ being able to just receive that love and acceptance from your relationship with Jesus and knowing that he, just like the woman at the well, he wants to come sit with us in our shame and help us work through it and help us overcome it. it just gives so much hope. You’re like, okay, we can do this. We don’t have to stay stuck in this. We don’t have to fall into that ⁓ habit of hiding.

Rosalynn Lasley (10:11)
Thanks.

Jen Cudmore (10:16)
And ⁓ you know isolation, which is just so bad for people anyway. I was thinking like I have so many stories around moments where I felt shame. I don’t even know which ones to share. So I was kind of praying, Lord, which ones would be helpful to the women? You know, I’ve told my story a little bit about having adult acne for so long and not realizing there was a spiritual component and how God healed me. But it was… ⁓

Rosalynn Lasley (10:22)
Mm-hmm.

Jen Cudmore (10:44)
I carried a lot of shame like walking around like thinking it’s my fault that I have all this You know blemishes on my face and that I don’t know how to fix it I’ve tried all these things and nothing is working, but it felt like it was my fault that I was dealing with that ⁓ But so many other things like I was trying to think back when was the first time that I felt it I think it was in the first grade we were having a little spelling bee thing in my classroom and I got the very last word and it was dolphin and I remember telling myself

Don’t say the don’t say the letter F don’t say the letter F, right? And so it was my turn to spell it DOL and I said F and so my team lost ⁓ It was it was super embarrassing because I had told myself not to say it and then I said it in front of the whole classroom It was my fault my team lost and so that was a huge moment of shame and embarrassment and condemnation for me for a while and I mean

when you’re a kid and you don’t know how to deal with tough things, I think it stays with you for a while. So why don’t you tell us one of your stories?

Rosalynn Lasley (11:45)
Yeah. Yeah.

I would say like the first time I ever felt ashamed was in kindergarten, or maybe before that even. ⁓ you know, kids in my class made fun of me because I had gotten glasses, you know, and it’s like, I can’t help it that I can’t see, but I was embarrassed. You know, I was embarrassed that I needed it ⁓ and that kids noticed that there was something different about me. I mean, I feel like ⁓ shame and embarrassment is something I’ve struggled with my

whole life, but it’s mostly self condemnation, self shame. It’s not necessarily from anybody else. It’s like the fear of other people, what they’re going to think of me. you know, was trying to think of like where, what are the areas where I struggle with shame right now? Like if I was to sit down and think about what areas am I battling shame today, it would be our finances, our debt and my weight.

because all growing up I was underweight, so kids made fun of me and teased me for being underweight. And then now in my middle age, I am severely overweight and I’ve gained a lot of weight in a short amount of time again. And it’s like, why did this happen? And some of it’s outside of my control, some of it’s not. I have terrible eating habits, I always have. ⁓ But my body chemistry is different. And so that’s just part of life. But why am I ashamed about that? And when I stop and think about it,

Is it because I think that I’m supposed to be? Is it because I think other people think I’m overweight and that I should be smaller? Or is it because that’s how I truly feel? And when I stop and think about it, the shame that I have comes from what I think other people might think. And it’s not necessarily things that they’ve ever said. For all I know, nobody’s even thought about it. ⁓ But I think that I should look a certain way. I think that I should have a certain amount of money in the bank. I think that I should.

own these things or not have any debt. ⁓ And because other people that are in, you know, are similar season of life or in a different place than we are, I feel ashamed of that, you know, and like, why, why is that? And if it is like debt, we’re not supposed to have debt. So if the shame comes from this is something I’m doing wrong and I need to get it right, then okay, I can.

Identify that as you know conviction from the Lord asking me to make some changes and get things back on the right track But I don’t have to sit there in this place and beat myself up because like you know I’ve done so well and we got you know Out of debt how many other times before and now we’re back in this place ⁓ Okay, well, let’s keep trying you can use the same tools that you have before or You know seeking help from other people who have been in your similar situation and have overcome it and

reach out to those that can help you that maybe have the tools that you don’t have in this season of your life. But when you feel ashamed, you’re less likely to speak up and say, hey, this is something I’m struggling with. Or I really hate that I’ve done this, but I don’t know how to fix it. And ⁓ then we just stay in this vicious cycle of making mistakes and beating ourselves up about it because we are afraid that if people know what we’re really dealing with, ⁓ they’ll feel that way about us too.

Jen Cudmore (15:00)
so good. totally can relate. Definitely right now ⁓ we have a lot of debt ⁓ that we are wanting to get paid down and I do get all the time bombarded with that temptation to feel shame around that. Like I should be, I shouldn’t be in this place right now at this season of life and also ⁓ with weight too. Obviously heading into perimenopause, things change in your body and so ⁓ yeah definitely I think those are two huge things that women

and struggle with definitely currently for me

I think finances and ⁓ body shape are probably the two biggest issues for women. That’s my perspective of what I’ve seen. know growing up, I, we lived ⁓ kind of below the poverty level, I guess.

Rosalynn Lasley (15:41)
Mm-hmm.

Jen Cudmore (15:49)
When I grew up, we lived in a house ⁓ with no electricity. And we didn’t make a lot of money. And so I didn’t have very many store-bought clothes. on one hand, it didn’t really bother me too much. But at the same time, I definitely could tell I was different from everyone else at school, right? You don’t get all the same things that they have. You don’t shop at all the same places. And so I definitely began to feel lower class and less than. ⁓ So that was more of like a, it wasn’t like a moment where I

Rosalynn Lasley (16:07)
Mm-hmm.

Jen Cudmore (16:19)
shame it was like this sort of long-term feeling that just sort of settled over me like almost like an impression like I’m never gonna measure up to the other kids and so I think that shame a lot of time shows up in a moment where you’re kind of in a spiral in your mind but it can also be sort of like this heaviness that sets over you ⁓ that can last a while ⁓

Rosalynn Lasley (16:25)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Jen Cudmore (16:40)
So.

Rosalynn Lasley (16:41)
And I grew

up the same way, really. half the time our heat or electricity was turned off or our pipes were frozen or our roof leaked all over throughout the house. We had holes in the floor. You know, I wore hand-me-down clothes, but that never bothered me, the hand-me-down stuff. And I don’t even think our house really bothered me as much as it probably should have. ⁓ I’ve always been a kind of a go-with-the-flow type of person.

Jen Cudmore (16:48)
I don’t know.

Rosalynn Lasley (17:08)
So I never really knew that I should be bothered by that until much later ⁓ when I started, you know, probably junior high and high school, when I saw the homes that my other friends had, was like, mine’s not like that, you know? I never had my own room. Like I joke with my kids, cause I saw this quote not very long ago, but it was very, it resonated with me a lot. And it said like,

I saw the way that my kids are growing up now, I would think they were incredibly wealthy. And I’m like, that is not a joke. Like I’ve never in my entire life had my own room. I shared a room with my sister and then I got married. Like they all have their own rooms. They all have their own bathrooms. Like you guys are crazy and spoiled, you know, so, ⁓ but then I still sit in this place with shame sometimes because our home is wonderful.

but we don’t own it. And so then I have the shame of like, we used to own our home in Alaska and I don’t own this home now, we’re just renting. And how silly, like this is a great house. It’s safe. Everyone has the space that they need. We have more space than we need. ⁓ So how dare I feel ashamed of that? Like this is everything we’ve ever prayed for. I could have never dreamed of living in a home like this ⁓ in my wildest dreams. If you would have given me, you know, here, tell me what you want in life. I never would have dreamed this. So.

How dare I sit in this place of shame now when this is beyond what I could have ever asked for.

Jen Cudmore (18:32)
Yeah, exactly. think another one for me is ⁓ I’ve never been the best housekeeper. And so that has also been a huge source of shame for me

I struggle with the motivation to get it done and then I look back and go like, my gosh, I didn’t do those certain things. Like right now my blinds have not been dusted in a couple of months and it really grosses me out. And so every time I look at them, it’s like, don’t, what am I trying to say? There’s something about the fact that I feel shame that it’s not done makes me like not go take care of it. Does that make sense? It’s like you’re so stuck in that, that you can’t actually do the thing to make you feel better about the situation.

Rosalynn Lasley (19:05)
You avoid it.

Jen Cudmore (19:11)
Like all I need to do is set aside 20 minutes, grab a duster, go through all the blinds, right? But there’s just something about it that like keeps you in that loop of being stuck.

Rosalynn Lasley (19:23)
Well, and it’s funny because I can think of, mean, my house is the same way. I’m not a very great housekeeper, but it’s like, why does it bother me? Is it because I think other people, like if somebody was to see my house, that they would judge me? And it’s like, I mean, the most everyone I know lives in a totally different state. They’re not gonna come to my house anyway. And so it’s like, nobody is even gonna know what my house is like, but somehow I feel this shame over.

not having this immaculate, sterile, spotless house. And like, how silly, how silly of me to put so much pressure on myself. You know, if I want to get it clean, then I can. If it needs to be cleaned, you know, the kids need clean clothes. Yes. Okay. I’ll take care of it. But if it’s just a matter of worrying that other people are going to judge me, that’s silly because they’re not here. They’re not going to see my house. And if they are and they judge me for it, they’re not somebody I want to invite over anyway. So

Jen Cudmore (20:11)
Exactly.

That’s

so good.

Rosalynn Lasley (20:19)
but it keeps

us in this little cycle of like beating ourselves up and why, why is that?

Jen Cudmore (20:26)
And the idea that I’m not the only human being that hasn’t dusted their blinds in months and months. I don’t touch them because they didn’t dust their blinds, right? Why do I think that they’re going to hate me or look down on me because I’m behind on dusting? Come on.

Rosalynn Lasley (20:34)
think I’ve dusted these blinds since we’ve left here. Yeah.

Yeah, I’m like, I don’t think we’ve ever dusted these blinds and we’ve lived for

like three years. I’m serious. I’m like, I don’t think I ever have, but, you know.

Jen Cudmore (20:52)
Yeah

Exactly, and I don’t despise you for that. I don’t think awful things about you. So anyhow Yeah, we definitely have this idea of the way like these standards that we think we have for ourselves or other people have for us that we have to measure up to and And it causes us shame that we we don’t need to put that pressure on ourselves. We don’t need to yeah, we don’t need to

Rosalynn Lasley (20:57)
Right.

And I think for me, comes to from like some of the people that I associated with back in Alaska, they all discussed each other. But never like these two people will talk about this one and these two people will talk about this one and these two people will talk about this one. And so then I was always thinking like, man, if they were to see my house as a mess or if they were to see this car that I drive, that’s not nice. Or if they were to know that, you know.

this is how much we make or that we don’t own our home or any of those things, then I can only imagine what they would say about me. And then if I stop and think about it, it’s like, let them say those things. They’re not a good friend. If they’re sitting here and discussing each other and they would have the audacity to discuss me, they’re not somebody I want a part of my life. So why do I care to have these hypothetical friends and want to impress them when they’re not?

kind, loving, gentle people. If those closest to them are not ⁓ without being discussed, yeah, I don’t know. It’s just silly, but I do think that. I’m like, what if I post a picture of my house and so-and-so can see that there’s a pile of mail on the table? Well, I guess if that’s all they have to talk about today, then enjoy.

Jen Cudmore (22:29)
That’s so good. I’ve definitely you know found times where like I want to snap a picture on my cat or take a video because he likes to play fetch with his little sparkly ball. It’s so cute. But like I’ll I’ll I don’t feel comfortable about it because my house isn’t clean enough so I can’t take that video. girl, we do these things to ourselves all the time. It’s just yeah. Okay, so let’s move into some things that we can do to overcome shame and and by all means we are not experts but we have started to practice overcoming and so we wanted to share some practices

tips with you today, things that we’ve learned that work for us. And I really think that the number one most important thing that you can do to overcome shame is learn to see yourself the way God sees you. And obviously that’s not going to happen in a day, a week, or even a month. You really have to lean into that and spend some time with him. But ⁓ I think that’s the most important. And then everything else kind of falls into place after that.

Rosalynn Lasley (23:24)
Right, I think for me, it’s just kind of really settling in and identifying where does this feeling come from? ⁓ Is it valid? Like, you know, not shame or condemnation, but necessarily conviction. And sometimes I mix up the two, but is this, you know, a tool that’s pushing me towards necessary change? Or is this something I’m doing to myself because I feel like I’m supposed to?

Like does the shape or weight of my body really, truly bother me? ⁓ Is it really truly unhealthy or does it bother me because I think it’s supposed to? And if the answer is it’s because I think it’s supposed to because I think other people are bothered by it, then why am I carrying around the shame of that? Cause that’s foolish. ⁓ But what am I going to do with that? What, how is that going to serve me or anybody else?

Jen Cudmore (24:19)
I think that’s such a great question, doing that reflection and gaining awareness around why does this bother me? Why do I feel ashamed about this situation? And digging into the roots of that and what’s influencing it. It’s so good. That’s so good. think also like the more we get to know God,

Rosalynn Lasley (24:34)
Mm-hmm.

Jen Cudmore (24:40)
The more we see that he’s not bothered by these things that bother us and so we can learn to let go a little bit easier So we’re like, okay if he’s not worried about it, like I remember one time This was a couple years ago. He was like, I’m not concerned about your debt You need to stop stressing about it. And I was like, wait a second Isn’t it like righteous and biblical to not have debt and he was like I am not worried about your debt. You need to stop stressing and I was like, ⁓ okay, right so

Rosalynn Lasley (24:44)
Yeah.

And.

Jen Cudmore (25:08)
So learning to see things from his perspective makes it a whole lot easier for us when those things come up. We’re like, okay, I don’t like this, but if he’s not worried about it, then I need to not be worried about it because he’s already got a plan or whatever, whatever. And so it’s very freeing when you can look at life through God’s perspective and hear his heart for the situation rather than all these other voices going on, right?

Rosalynn Lasley (25:32)
Right.

Or I think if we were to stop and instead of sitting in shame, but thinking about like those around us and within our sphere of influence that are dealing with similar things to have somebody say, you know, I struggle with that too, or I’ve dealt with that too, or yeah, I’ve gained 40 pounds in my forties as well, you know, and then somebody else is like, ⁓ really? They find freedom because we no longer let the shame have power over us, you know, with

our living situation or our debt or any of that stuff. Now, of course, we don’t want to just be like going off spending money that we shouldn’t, but sometimes that happens. And so when we step out of shame and, you we have this acceptance and we work towards fixing the things that need to be fixed and letting go of the things that don’t, um, when we have the ability to speak freely about the things that we struggle with, other people find healing. And that’s, you know, I think that’s why Satan uses shame.

because then it’s not powerful, more people aren’t finding freedom and healing, and then that ripple effect doesn’t take place because we’re sitting here in isolation because we’re stuck with our shame.

Jen Cudmore (26:39)
also learning to see things the way God sees things, takes a little time, it takes a little practice, but it really is, ⁓ it can affect every single issue that we’re dealing with, every single area. So I already talked about the money thing and the debt thing, but I remember ⁓ having a conversation with the Lord when I was out, I think I shared this on another episode where I was struggling with going clothes shopping because I didn’t feel like,

things fit me correctly. And through that conversation, there was one point where God said to me, I have never once talked to you about your weight or your shape. And it really dawned on me that, you I’m the one that’s saying I need to look a certain way according to, you know, my rules or the world’s rules. And that’s true. He’s talked to me about, ⁓ you know, the way that I eat or how much exercise I’m getting or things like that. So being able to shift that back into perspective, like, OK, like

let’s stop fixating on the size of my jeans

It also like you can do that and it gets you to a place where it’s not condemnation, but it’s just a little conviction like ⁓ oops You know the Lord really has talked to me about not eating so much sugar And so instead of feeling ashamed that I ate another cookie I can be like, okay Since the Lord’s talked to me about this. Let me go ahead and put a boundary and you know Maybe for the next few days I don’t need any sugar or whatever that needs to look like but because we’re looking at it from his perspective ⁓ we can

Rosalynn Lasley (28:03)
Right.

Jen Cudmore (28:08)
overcome that and reject the whole idea and not even get sucked into the shame storm or in the shame spiral or that loop in our mind because we’re more and more every day seeing life from his perspective instead of our own. I hope I explained that well.

Rosalynn Lasley (28:24)
Right. Yeah. Well, I think

one of the biggest things that has helped me along the way is raising three daughters. ⁓ and the way that I am encouraging them about either their mistakes or their own physical insecurities or their fears, you know, going to the swimming pool and being afraid of what they look like in a bathing suit. you know, and one of the ways that

It’s like I share these things with my daughters and then later on the Lord reminds me of it myself. But it’s like when you go to the pool, do you look around and think bad things about other people in their bathing suit? When you went home, were you thinking about what certain people look like? And the answer most likely is no, you were there having a good time. And so I’m sure that nobody else here is paying attention to what you look like in your bathing suit. Everyone else is just equally uncomfortable. We are all uncomfortable in our bathing suit, out in public and

Each one of us is worried about ourselves, not everybody else. So the fact that we are consumed with what people might think of us is silly because everyone here is uncomfortable. Nobody wants strangers to see them ⁓ in this vulnerable state. And so the fact that we’re worried about it when we’re not worried about anybody but ourselves is probably also true for everybody else here. And I shared a similar thing with a friend. She was going on a cruise or something. And I was like, you know, if you go to a pool, like, ⁓

Jen Cudmore (29:42)
Yeah.

Rosalynn Lasley (29:49)
We were in Mexico. It’s like you could tell all of the moms. You’re like, that’s mom, that’s mom, that’s mom. Cause all of our bellies look the same. who are we trying to impress? Our spouses know what we look like. These strangers we’re never gonna see again. It doesn’t matter. So let’s just go and have a good time.

Jen Cudmore (30:05)
and the thing is too, it’s like this weird combination of we’re obsessed with what other people think, but we’re also obsessed with ourselves because we’re like so fixated on we’ve got to have the perfect image or we’ve got to behave the perfect way or whatever. It’s this weird.

way of how we’re sort of obsessing over these two things at the same time. What do others think? And totally focused on myself so that I can fit into what others think. And it’s like, wait a minute, wait a minute. That’s not what the Lord meant for us to be like or to live like, right?

Rosalynn Lasley (30:32)
Yeah.

Like how

exhausting, so much mental energy jumping back and forth between these two things when in the end, both are kind of irrelevant.

Jen Cudmore (30:40)
Yes.

Exactly, because it’s about what God says, right? It’s about what God wants for us and how, yeah, totally. think that one thing that really helped me was realizing that I’m not the only person that struggles,

everybody struggles with shame at a certain level and that is normal and so give yourself permission to struggle give yourself permission to ⁓ You know not know how to handle something. It’s human to have same come on you, right? It’s ⁓ anyhow

Rosalynn Lasley (31:12)
Right.

Well, and I think we put levels of things that are shamed or shame worthy, know, like addictions or infidelity or children outside of marriage or, you know, just throwing out things like we have a level of things that were like, yeah, people should be ashamed of that. And then we have other things like, you shouldn’t worry about that. But the truth is we each have something in our life that causes us shame, but to God, it’s all the same,

He wants to give us freedom and healing from all of it, regardless of how deep rooted it is.

Jen Cudmore (31:49)
One thing that I found interesting too, ⁓ when I was doing some counseling years ago is the idea of around the concept of forgiving ourselves for not being perfect. And I don’t know that everybody needs to do this, but it certainly was huge for me because I had such high standards for myself. And I think a lot of women are like this is we put standards on ourselves that are not from the Lord, you know? And so learning to be okay with not.

⁓ behaving perfectly or looking perfect you don’t technically have to forgive yourself for not being perfect it’s like some sort of

There’s like something in your brain where if you say, forgive you and I don’t put this expectation on you anymore, it’s very freeing. At least it was for me and I think a lot of women could relate to that if they were to try it. ⁓

Rosalynn Lasley (32:34)
Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah,

absolutely. I think also realizing, like if we even just think about the way that our bodies change throughout the course of our life, know, wrinkles and ⁓ the way that our skin gets thin or our bodies get more fluffy and tender, like that was intentional. Like God did that for a reason. It’s not by mistake that throughout the course of our lives, our bodies change.

And it happens to all of us around the same season of life. Like, that was intentional. And so we’re trying to undo this intentional design that God has given humanity. And why is that? Why are we feeling ashamed of growing older or having bellies that look stretched out because we’ve had children? Like, He did that on purpose.

Jen Cudmore (33:27)
I love it. remember the first time I read the scripture about ⁓ gray hair being a blessing and I was like, wait, what? Like our culture is so fixated on not, you know, we want to cover up the gray. And even for a while, I struggled with should I dye my roots or not? And I kind of felt like the Lord didn’t really have an opinion. I could do it or not do it as long as I was okay with. ⁓

as long as it wasn’t a place of shame or condemnation because I had gray hair like he said gray hair is good It’s a blessing and so am I covering it up because it makes me feel bad to have it or am I covering it up? Just because I prefer brown hair, right? And so our motives definitely matter like why are we doing the things that we’re doing? ⁓ So that was just kind of an interesting way that the Lord showed me that our thought process behind it

Rosalynn Lasley (34:07)
Yeah.

Jen Cudmore (34:20)
is is huge.

Rosalynn Lasley (34:23)
Mm-hmm, it really is.

Jen Cudmore (34:24)
so talking about the opinions of others, we also, along with that, get so easily sucked into the comparison trap. And know, you and I talked about this way back on episode five, way in the beginning when we were starting this, like how difficult that is and how much that causes us shame because we don’t look like that other person.

as good of a mom or not as good of a wife or whatever it is. And so learning to see how often, I don’t know for me, I didn’t realize how much I was comparing myself until somebody called me on it and I was like, oh dear, that’s not cool, right?

Rosalynn Lasley (35:03)
I think we all do it to some extent, ⁓ but it’s such a waste of our time and yet it’s hard to get out of that habit.

Jen Cudmore (35:13)
It absolutely is.

We have to deal with those things, like we said, the roots or those things in our heart that are causing us to need that so badly, to need that validation from other people. I think along with forgiving yourself, giving yourself permission to be human, giving yourself grace is huge. And learning to not be so condemning and learning not to berate yourself. I mean, I was the queen of self-condemnation for years and it was very difficult to get out of that habit of looking, you

Rosalynn Lasley (35:22)
Yeah.

Right.

Jen Cudmore (35:44)
speaking so badly about myself or thinking so negatively about just different aspects of my life. So it takes practice.

Rosalynn Lasley (35:51)
Absolutely.

Jen Cudmore (35:52)
let’s go ahead and wrap this up. So as we go about the week, ⁓ let’s explore the depths of this final thought. Have you ever thought about the idea that shame can be overcome? That when guilt and condemnation rise up inside of you, that you can actually learn to shut it down and turn it off? This week, anchor yourself in the hope that you have more control than you thought when it comes to shame.

Rosalynn Lasley (36:03)
Mm.

Jen Cudmore (36:17)
When you stand up to this bully, it will lose its power. And so next week, we’re going to talk about some practical ways to help you reframe those thought processes and fight back and overcome. But hopefully this was encouraging to you. Hopefully this gives you some hope that you don’t have to stay stuck in those shame cycles. You can break free. So bless you, friend. Have a great week.

Rosalynn Lasley (36:21)
Mm-hmm.